A rally to drive out Newark Archbishop Myers is a bust.
Recent reporting from the New Jersey Star-Ledger about Newark Archbishop John J. Myers and his handling of a now-deceased priest in the Diocese of Peoria back in the 1990s would have you believe that New Jersey Catholics are rabidly up in arms to the point that they are fervently seeking Myers' removal.
However, the meager gathering for an August 20, 2013, rally outside Newark's archdiocesan headquarters, apparently organized by local gadfly/ex-priest/"Catholic Whistleblower" Robert Hoatson, suggests that anger against Archbishop Myers has barely extended beyond the editorial rooms of the Star-Ledger and the basements of the usual Church cranks, such as Hoatson.
A whopping three people showed up for the rally last week seeking the prelate's resignation.
New Jersey Star-Ledger arrives for support
Yet the paltry turnout did not halt New Jersey Star-Ledger ace reporter Mark Mueller from eagerly arriving on the scene to work the crowd of three and lend his tacit support to the cause.
Dogged NJ Star-Ledger reporter Mark Mueller (blue shirt) pushes through the crowd for an interview.
Moments later, Mueller was even joined by a cameraman from local community television's "NJ Today," who dutifully recorded the historic event:
A "NJ Today" cameraman gives angry ex-priest Bob Hoatson (brown pants)
media exposure for the big event.
After Mueller escaped the throng, and the cameraman somehow managed his departure from the frenzy, well … the excitement finally subsided.
Time to order a pizza? A busted rally finally draws to a close.
You are so wrong. I, Jim or any other victim/survivor started nothing. We did not sexually abuse ourselves. Your priests are the ones who did that. Then along with the abuser your church made the decision to continue to harm and disrespect their victims by attempting to sweep the sins underneath the rug, and today you ask the world to have pity on your church.
No, we did not start the fight but we now as adults who stand on our on two feet and no longer feel the shame of what has happened to us because we now understand we have done nothing wrong will be the ones who will finish the fight.
You and your majority here on TMR may continue to insult and pretend to impress, but unlike the nightmares of my abuse you people do not keep me up at night.
Go Dennis. You nailed it. Thanks man.
Are you one of the 3 individuals at the rally? Based on your hatred of the catholic church and knowledge of victims abuse needs i would think you would be at every event in the tri-state area. Or do you only show your support from behind a keyboard?
Hope i didn't say the wrong thing to avoid being sued by the retired dennis ecker.
P.S.You know we used to kill Germans and Japanese and Commie's. Now China's our buddy so's Germany and Japan . What changed? A lot of people died.
Changing subject.
Why would I answer and dialog with someone who calls me insane?. Why would he ,P, even want an answer from a mad man? Who's saner, the guy who wants a debate with a mentally ill inferior or the guy who refuses to speak to anyone who attempts to use innuendo and insult as tactics in his own obliteration?
I'm going with the latter, myself.
I don't remember you saying no or yes regarding, your being either a clerical or lay sex abuser. When did you answer? I don't believe you did answer.
If Aristophanes is your "literary reference" fabulous. Another gay Greek. Ribbit!
There it is again by another catholic church follower Mark Munos with the catholic church hater bit.
Lets put and end to the name calling and say yes I am. I'm a bigot too, I'm a fan of the Philadelphia District Attorney and Marianna Sorenson is my hero. I'm a divorced/remarried ex-catholic who denounces the teachings of the church. I don't care one bit about one's sexual life style, and I make love to my wife only to express the love I have for her and no other reason. What else can I say ?
Oh, and I stereotype all priests as abusers until proven otherwise. You know rather be safe then sorry.
Now you Mark, lets hear your story. No wait. I already know what your going to say. Please have pity on my church. Our priests did nothing wrong. I've known Father So and So for many years he could not have done such a thing. Your abuse happened many years ago, get over it. You are only saying things for the big pay out.
Heard them all Mark.
NEXT.
Dennis Ecker said, "Oh, and I stereotype all priests as abusers until proven otherwise. You know rather be safe then sorry."
That is blatant false witness, Dennis. That is my biggest problem with the likes of you, your recklessness in lobbing out allegations. I'd rather know the truth than be safe or sorry. With that one sentence you have just admitted to the world that the truth means nothing to you.
Is that the same Harry Truman who killed all those Japanese people in the '40's? He sure was a great example for mankind.
Which anti catholic bigot? I'm sure you see them everywhere. They're hiding behind the drapes with the Islamo-facists. Now I know why you don't tell us who you are. Have you tried smearing lambs blood on your lintels that the angel of death will pass over? Or are you armed to the teeth? Wait don't tell me I don't really want to know.
Ah "also No" was your answer? Cryptic. Thank you. Now when you believe me then I'll believe you.
Once more, Jim is inspiring me to open my heart and pocketbook to the Church. God bless, Jim. And I will pray for you even though you don't believe in it. Just in case I might send some goodness your way.
Well, I don’t “want an answer” from JR – he constructed that scenario from an improperly-drawn conclusion (so what’s new?). I simply go with whatever material is put up here that seems to have some useful connection (in a positive or a negative way) to the Catholic Abuse Matter. Yes, as he says, he may be a “madman” – but that simply makes me less desirous of having to wade into his material. But you have to go where the material goes in order to assess it. It is what it is.
Thus while it is JR who gives us the phrase “mentally ill inferior”, yet I do not “want” to get into his material. I simply have to go where the material goes.
The reference to Aristophanes being gay is … what it is. And utterly irrelevant.
Ditto the irrelevance of the comment about Harry Truman. But for the Notebook on the Playbook we can see just what the Abusenik mind does: ignoring the gravamen of material and trying to come up with some – or any – way to somehow deride the material. As if by making fun of the material and the questions they are somehow wished-away. And this type of childish mentality can put up such a comment and then imagine it has successfully and sufficiently dealt with the challenge presented by the material. (Anybody who has watched a vampire movie knows that this type of character doesn’t last long.)
But the thing to note here is that for so very long the media have given these types not only a free-pass (not wondering about their being “mentally ill”, among other things; or characterologically-challenged, to put it nicely) but also given them serious chin-stroking attention (using them, thus, like Lenin’s ‘useful idiots’ to satisfy the media’s need to create the appearance of conflict in order to have soap-operas by which to sell papers and attract viewers and readers).
And then – finally – at 1237AM today JR finally finds my answer to his demand for a simple Yes or No. I had said “No” but apparently he hadn’t seen that. And now, having gotten the simple one-word answer he asked for, he is dissatisfied that it is – waitttttt for itttttt! – a simple one word answer. (Or is there a way that that “No” can sound not-“cryptic”? Or is it “cryptic” at all; perhaps it is simply clear and concise, as requested.
JR can do whatever he likes in terms of believing or dis-believing me. I think I have established beyond any reasonable doubt my assessment of his qualities and capabilities such that his opinion isn’t really anything to be concerned about. And he was the one who asked for the simple one-word answer in the first place.
But for the Notebook on the Playbook I call attention to yet another marvelously blurted-out revelation: ‘belief’ isn’t a matter of evidence for Abuseniks. Rather it’s a mutual admiration society: you believe me and I’ll believe you and if you don’t believe me then – myah myah – I won’t believe you. Long ago on this site I suggested the possibility that this dynamic is precisely what is operative in virtual or actual Abusenik get-togethers: they all have a ‘story’ and they ‘support’ each other by simply ‘believing’ each other’s stories. No questions asked of me and no questions asked of you – that sort of thing.
But as I also said long ago here, this dynamic serves several strategic purposes: i) it provides a way of avoiding the inevitable doubts and dissensions if any individual allegants were suddenly to start using their brains and questioning some of the stuff that was put in front of them by other allegants as ‘fact’; ii) it therefore preserves a sense of (illusory) common identity and unity for what is in essence a disparate bunch of story-tellers looking to be ‘accepted’ and ‘believed’; iii) it also then clears the path for a further (illusory)unity to be premised upon ‘healing’ and ‘supporting’ (and the passing out of attorneys’ phone numbers and consultation of the ‘possession narratives’ cataloged by various helpful sites such as Bishop-Accountability); iv) it thus creates a useful ‘pool’ in which torties so inclined can troll for ‘plaintiffs’; v) it thus also creates a useful ‘pool’ of ‘some’ voices that can be erected into the anti-pole in a bipolar conflict polarity (here: Abuseniks vs. Church); vi) it thus also creates a use and ‘need’ for the Abusenik front organizations such as SNAP and the ‘possession-narrative’ dissemination organizations like Bishop-Accountability as well as creates jobs for those ‘spokespersons’ who now get a status from the organizations; vii) it gives all the participants the illusory sense that they are right, believed and believable, numerous, and thus simultaneously grants status, meaning, purpose (and cash) to persons who otherwise would not have so much of any of those things.
What was not to like? And the Stampede came.
Throw in a buck for me Julie. What [edited by moderator] has your heart got do with it. You sound like the old Goldwater slogan "in your heart you know he's right". And it may have been Mort Sahl who retorted with "In your heart you know he's nuts". Are you mistaking your "heart" for a Disney cartoon heaven. With fluffy clouds and apple blossoms. Or will it be you just staring into the face of your god like a gigantic love kalidescope. And while you play with the angels. Yip pee Them what didn't make the cut went to a place of eternal ETERNAL torture their screams were not joyous, burning! never to die burning. Horrible!
So the story goes.
So what weve got is either ether land or HELL FIRE! I aint feeling the love in that choice.
Why? What did we do? Hitler and his henchman, for them a hell. But for Joe and Jane Average What did we do? . What's our biggest sin? Not changing the system?
A cromagnon and her spouse ate an apple and we've got to pay for it over thousands of generations? Your god's a gangster. He's creepy. Real creepy. Does he turn down the volume on the hell speaker and crank up the Yippey! Goofy in heaven show?
What's your heart got to say hon. Is it "A Dream is a wish your heart makes" Or "Someday my Prince will come on a cloud of gold being born by the Serafin?…Doo da!
What the hell does the church want with your open heart? they've got your mind and your purse.
And I'll say a prayer to my athiest god for you and goodness has everything to do with it. I wish you well but if there is a god oh never mind there isn't so just use the brain god didn't give you, the one your family grew for you. Why does the church need you to be open hearted because people aren't liking them ? Are you being conned? I say yes.
Sorry if I was terse above. I have a lot of Eyore in me. (aside) It was a little show I used to put on in T.J.rimshot!
Josie- yes, it is good to hear that you also see the results of the truth finally emerging on this played out, overhyped matter – Thank God.
Thanks to truthtellers like DP and certainly many others, as well the faithful, the relatively minor Church abuse problem (fact) is revealed for what it truly is, an antiCatholic campaign driven by leftist politics.
Now, the Church can move on to more important tasks, such as continuing to feed those 'millions of starving children' the not-so-savvy Church detractors whine about purely as a distraction, but for which they do absolutely nothing to correct – except blame God, or Catholics, or conservatives or anybody else but themselves.
The Church, with our Pope at the helm, will also be called upon, once again, to provide necessary moral leadership to the world to fill the incredible void created by the vapid US leftist leadership – which has severely endangered all our freedoms, including the lefts most cherished sacred cows, to a degree not witnessed in several generations.
A fair analogy of the results of permitting leftist ideologues, a minority, to dictate (another sad fact) might be indulging the petulent (obnoxious) child that demands as much candy as his greedy little stomach can physically contain, only to have to hold his hand and console him as he violently vomits as a result of his own selfish and stupid demands. This is what the left in the US has visited upon us all, via a thoroughly selfish mentality that elects to define itself via a small proportion (racially, sexually, economically) of his overall spiritual and non-spiritual being and worth (strictly to gain unfair advantage over the moral majority in order to advance an antisocial agenda), rather than in terms of his total and wholesome humanity, as created in God's image.
Thankfully, you are correct in that it appears as though the old, played-out 60s radicals numbers, and therefore, their ridiculous and socially damaging demands and influence are on the decline.
Finally, todays 12th anniversary of the radical Islamic attack on US soil should remind us all of the global holy war (jihad) being waged against Christians. I was exiting a PATH train under WTC 1 when the first plane hit that structure. I was covered in the debris of the building collapse as I ran up Church St, along with thousands of others. I am also a member of a first-responder agency, as well as part of an extended family of firefighters, EMTs and law enforcement- all of which were fully-engaged in the response to that attack. Family and friends were lost directly in that tragedy, and since in the wars and attacks that ensued. The rest of us worked the "pile" and/or the Staten Island "landfill" – where we sorted through debris searching for human remains and belongings, for weeks and months after the tragedy. Sometimes, we found remnants or belongings of family members and friends. We tearfully 'celebrated' those rare times. Yet, we blame no one but the actual perpetrators of that heinous act, and those that would continue to distort a peaceful religion to commit their hateful acts of murder.
While the selfish, deranged antiAmerican and incredibly over-indulged leftists continue their quest to destroy American exceptionalism and freedom, under the guise of being 'anticapitalists and defenders of the poor and marginalized', they need to be reminded that they weaken America, with their relentless attacks and traitorous acts, in the eyes of the world. This world, with few exceptions found in mostly Christianized nations, is brutally cruel and evil in ways the well-fatted and overly protected typical leftist can only read about in some novel as he lounges about Washington Square Park with a joint in one of in his soft, chubby hands, and a NYU law book in the other. Very few leftist ideologues have witnessed first-hand or tackled the evils of this world, beyond our borders.
Never forget 9-11, and never forget that our enemies will never stop trying to either convert us or kill us all. They make no secret of their intentions. We must keep our eyes on the real threats to us that eminate external to our borders, while we attempt to manage the spoiled brats within our borders. We are all victims of one evil or another, it is part of being in (but, not of) the fallen world. The challenge is to rise above it, move on, and most of all - forgive.
God bless us all, and especially God Bless America.
James I'm done.
I will try and keep this as clean as possible for the moderators. First I am witnessing clearly a scraping of the barrel when anyone starts to agree with Josie and who actually thanks God for her.
Then once again Delphin claims our abuse is nothing more than, let me quote "Thanks to truthtellers like DP and certainly many others, as well the faithful, the relatively minor Church abuse problem. I wonder since he has spoken these words before if he would be singing the same tune if his young son or daughter were abused by clergy ?
But the straw that broke the back today was him patting himself on the back on this day September 11th. The second most horrific day in my life. The timeline of the events of what he did on that day. Our house called people like him, Wannabees or Wackers. You know the type who failed civil service tests and got stuck behind a desk pushing papers. The individual who because of no ones fault except his own could not fulfill his boyhood dream.
He takes this day with the priority being the attacks and not the lives lost of 343 brother firefighters, the innocent lives lost in both towers, policemen, transit authority officers, and lives of innocent people in the air on three jets and the lives on the ground.
Then he continues to fail to remember the family of those left behind. Children who are able to remember a hug from their father, or being sung a lullabye by their mother.
He truly fails to know what the meaning of Let us never forget means. In one way it could mean never forget so our guard is never down again, but its true meaning is the rememberance of those individuals who have their name called out every year.
A so called american who lives off the coat tails of others to make himself look good, an individual who has told so many lies he is starting to believe them himself.
Delphin, if you were man enough to use your real name you know I would try and check it against the sign in sheets. The same type of sheet that I signed at Mets Stadium before being shuttled onto the fire ground.
James, these people are clearly dangerous. They continue to live a lie as put by Delphin "the relatively minor Church abuse problem.
But I will leave them with this image and that is a man and his family jumping up and down everytime a clergy member hears those words guilty, and if one should have his conviction overturned I will still be jumping up and down knowing that innocent or not a clergy member spent time in prison because of the crimes of his church, and my final response would be oh well, its relatively a minor mistake.
I am not saying I am gone forever. I will be back anytime its time to gloat or when information is presented to wake these people up.
Thank goodness there is room for your well chosen words and description of another day that will live in infamy. Your personal involvement makes it all the more real as we pray for those who died this day and their loved ones. Most people get it-God does not cause these evil things to happen. We can only pray that men can let there be peace.and try to do our part as part of the human race.
From the mountains to the praries to the oceans flecked with foam God Bless America my home sweet home. ….. Can I unwrap myself from the flag now?
Good grief, just saw the ridiculous, incredibly juvenile comments in response to a couple of my posts.
I am not at war with real victms of abuse, just with the liars that use their claimed victimhood (charity demands that I accept your stories on face-value [at no cost to me] because I have no information to the contrary, not because you have proven anything) as a ruse to viciously attack the Church.
My reference to DPs fact-based investigations and reports and my decision to "believe" (accept as fact) them is not replacing God with DP. What a childish attempt (embarrased much?) to distort words and intentions.
If you two think you can turn white to black with a mere twist and distortion of written [documented] reality, what have you done, will you do, elsewhere – such as your insistence that we all rely on your word against others you convict or condemn?
Calumny come to mind? Did we leave Catholicism because it demands certain standards of behavior that are just simply unattainable for some? Shall we lower the standards in every aspect of life so as to make sure the lowest common denominator is all that is ever acheived, and not aspiration to excellence? How thoroughly Communist of you both.
With every [fairly useless and almost universally hateful) word you two contribute, you are responsible for undermining any legitimacy other real victims might enjoy in the public discourse. You and your juvenile antics, on this site and others, and likely wherever else you two amateurs can garner a sufficient audience you desperately crave, have done more damage to real victims seeking justice (not just booty) than anyone else on TMR, or anywhere normal, sane, rational observers might congregate to discuss and debate the merits of the ideologically-manufactured case against the Church.
Aside from your own experiences, you claim, as fact, that there is a massive worldwide conspiracy of crimes, ranging from white collar financial irregularities to murder and everything in between, being committed in/by the Church, yet you offer no evidence to support your claims in that regard. That makes you liars.
It is clear from your comments that your beliefs of the "Catholic Conspiracy" are fueled by your hatred of the Catholic Church, therefore, that means that you have an agenda against the Church that is driven by hate. Do you finally get it? Repeat: No evidence of your [baseless] claims of a criminal conspiracy within the Church exists, anywhere but in your diseased minds, and then unfortunately, as expressed by your own hate-filled words which clearly and unequivocably prove your antiCatholic bigotry.
And, that, our friends, is exactly why only three people, and only a failing local notoriously biased "rag", showed up at Archbishop Myers roasting party.
The gig is up.
I can't stop laughing. It's a sad day but you've made me laugh.
Law left the U.S. Why? Because he could have been in jail himself. Mahoney resigned . He had to and when the documents came out he had most clearly commited felonies.i.e. Aiding a pedophile priest to avoid prosecution. A felony FELONY crime. So wish away reality sunshine. Your own leaders commited crimes. Every group has child molestors that's not the issue. it's the cover up. So you have at least two cardinals (goodness knows there's more) From the old catholic city Boston and The largest archdiocese Los Angeles. Again FELONIES! And you pretend that it didn't happen.
[edited by moderator]
Commies under the bed. Islamo Nazi's wearing the bed sheets with knives in their teeth. Yet we are the ones who keep killing them.
We aren't commanded by god to go half way round the world to kill. Are we? We're just doing it because we can or to keep this economy a float?
Publion,
It appears that someone is donning an extra-large Wig of Aggravation and now asking me "simple" questions-like why can't I be polite to Dennis and I think that the thread may close. So, just in case you missed it-about 17 comments up from the last on the first page of this long discussion, I note that the trial Dennis was intent on reporting about (and didn't except to make his "editorial" comment on its continuance) is scheduled now for 2/24/14. To my utter dismay, I had to do the hard work myself. Just imagine! I was mistrusting of his puffed up demeanor (and sketchy info). Absolutely nothing was reported about it. (The news people know that the spin now is turning people off so they don't consider it newsworthy.( I know that first hand from 3 good friends who work for local Phl. channels). I do not know whether Ralph has any interest either-it is not really a "big trial". I am sure he will cover the appeals and the other trial. I have need to move on from the gross infiltration of absurd Wigs (love that expression).
So please, lastly for now, to you and all you haven't read Archbishop Chaput's Sept. 6 column, it is worth the time. http://www.archphila.org/archbishop-chaput/statements/statements.php
I am passing you
Now lets pick apart Josie's boyfriend's report:
Philadelphia Catholics have lived through a decade of tough news: the suffering of abuse victims and their families; two grand jury reports; priests removed from ministry; parish mergers; school closings; declining Mass attendance; well-intentioned but poor financial management; outright embezzlement – all of it compounded by complacency, inertia and too little transparency and accountability at almost every level of Church life.
Its funny I can't. Maybe to stress that the outright embezzlement he speaks of had nothing to do with abuse victims, but to someone on Charlie's own staff.
Oh, I know is this not the same problems that I mentioned before and Josie claimed it was not the truth, and was it a pure mistake that he failed to mention the four recent convictions of his abusive priests, with more heading to the courtroom in the near future.
The only other thing that I did not see is the final report of the remaining child abusers STILL UNDER INVESTIGATION by the AOP.
A great example of how the catholic church picks and chooses what they will tell their flock.
Josie,
I want to say that when I read Charlie's statement I noticed he mentioned he talked about the hate mail he received. I can tell you it was not me.
How many times can one individual read "I do not wish to feel pressured"
It must have been those unhappy catholics in the parishes.
Get em Josie, tell them to stop picking on your boy.
You two started the Profiling, which was the topic of that post- do you really have this much trouble comprehending words, concepts and context (any focus, discernment possible?)? And, the "atta boy" by your cheerleader (does that come with pom-poms?) is equally revealing (and sad, considering your chronological ages).
It is time to consider the intellectual and emotional aptitudes of these two dissenters, and move along, charitably. The majority of TMR contributors thoughtful and logical contributions are being hi-jacked by insanity and irrationality (whether intentional or otherwise) at a very base level, and that serves no one.
Bring on the logical and honest dissenters – we need real meat (sustenance). Debating with 'petulant overindulged children' isn't fruitful. It's really just suger overload-
Responding to Josie: yes, thank you, I saw your research results when you put them up. I had had no luck on the court site but perhaps that was because I was entering it as an 'active' case and it wasn't; nor did I have enough information about the Defendant to satsify the site's search parameters.
You raise an interesting point about the Philly media's new distancing from the Stampede. I don't know what Mr. Cipriano's decision will be but there are several months yet and who knows what might happen?
See one thing that our Miss Josie Bailey has forgot to inform her fellow mousekateer is the start of the appeal of the pimp of the AOP Fr. Lynn this coming Tuesday.
Not only does the church pick and choose what information gets out, they do it to themselves.
How many days has Lynn been in Prison ?
Delphin,
Here is what today is all about
http://genealogytrails.com/main/sept11_wtcdead.html
[edited by moderator]
Sorry TMR, I will rephrase my last edited comment regarding Delphin, and to remind him that the ten commandments state bearing false witness is a sin.
Looks as though we struck a[nother] nerve with the victim-claimant crowd. How very interesting.
It appears as though 9-11 first responders are so revered that they have been elevated to 'worship' status, such as one would treat their religion or God. How rich. Let's take the comparison a tad further, shall we?
Let's take our first responder 'herd' and reduce them down to their sinful human component/individual 'cow' parts. Then, let's smear the entire 'herd' with the sins of a few, say, thieves ripping off the Fund, others committing criminal acts, make that heinous sexual acts, against first responder and other victims family members, and then we'll spin it up real good into to a major conspiratorial coverup of grand proportions (just with a wave of our magical 'wordwand' – no evidence required). How's that going for you, so far? Still with us?
Like I've said, we all have our sacred cows. How does it feel having yours skewered?
The obvious point of my posting on 9-11 was to demonstrate the lack of profiling of any group due to the actions of a relative few, and the forgiveness by those affected which is absolutely required to be able to move on and live a normal, productive life (this is likely the key part to which they just can't relate). The intentional misinterpretation of that salient point is your problem (one among many).
How is it that you regularly [and brutally] profile Catholics as a result of your personal experiences, but not Muslims? How does that logic toggle work?
Of course, we all know the answer- you need not bother with an attempt that would likely be as painful for us to decipher as it would be for your to pretzel-twist in to.
This is probably where he exists, stage left, as huffy and indignant as his personal cheerleader pretends to be when he similarly bails out… when it gets just a wee bit too warm.
Your ranting clearly makes no sense.
[edited by moderator] What is the name of that first responder agency you belong or belonged to ? What's the names of those extended family members of firefighters ? I'm sure you would have no problem with a brother speaking with a fellow brother would you ?
You don't just hate Jim or me or any other survivor, you truly must also hate yourself to pretend to be something you are not, and the only advice I can give you there is no matter what you do you should give it a 100%, the world also needs pencil pushers.
You owe alot of people an apology.
and to respond to your final sentence." bails out… when it gets just a wee bit too warm". Like I stated I'm not gone for good and anytime you feel like turning up the heat I welcome it, just be careful you don't burn yourself like you did today.
Nobodies reducing catholics to anything. No one said you are the perps you are in fact enablers however because you've done nothing to punish the enablers. In fact because you so idenified with a goodness that wasn't there; around this rather personal issue to the church: celibacy the hypocricy of the men you trusted your acting out on the very people who you want to blame , us victims for speaking up for sharing the truth and horror that happened to us as children at these mens and womens hands. (Sorry for the run on).That just seems to be the truth of it. You so want to pretend that there are more fake claims than not but it's not the truth, it's just not. And that makes you immoral. Not catholics ,you, as individuals. That's immoral.
If you ever experience glory or awe that's in you nobody told you what's beautiful in nature you just know it when you see it. That's you your response to the universe? isn't that glory enough for you? You want too much A life after death. Hell a life before death even . you want too much. You don't need heaven you are heaven and sadly hell too.
Am I correct that we have just seen the shortest Wiggy Farewell-Tour on record here? Ecker’s retirement from the stage lasted from 353PM to 423PM … half an hour. Surely we are approaching the frontier of the ridiculous – or at least the ludicrous.
I would say that if the actual dimensions of the Catholic Abuse Problem (as we may reasonably infer them from the material we have managed to examine here) are compared to the horror-show scenario painted so vividly by the Abuseniks then there is – to say the very least – a wide discrepancy indeed. And in that sense I could agree with the characterization of the actual dimensions of the Catholic Abuse Problem be as “relatively minor”. This is not the result of ‘minimizing’ on behalf of the Church as it is the result of finally getting an actual grasp on the exaggerations fomented by the Abuseniks and the various elements behind the Stampede.
As it was with the Bolsheviks: the status-quo which they were seeking to rip away had to be characterized as outrageously as possible in order to justify the Terror which they had already determined to impose. Same thing with the Stampede.
But Ecker will now try to deploy the same gambit that lubricated – by the most amazing coincidence – the various unhappy military misadventures of the recent past (and may yet lubricate one in the very near future): if there is only just one in pain, then things must be made to happen.
And do we even now who has genuinely been in pain? Does Ecker actually know? Can anybody seriously rely on his word or claim?
A lengthy aside on 9-11 which appears to be a commercial for Ecker somehow. Who knows?
A collegial bit with “James” that “these people are truly dangerous”. Compared to the people who fomented the 9-11 that Ecker claims to have taken so heroic a part in? Clearly, Wigs do not bestow a sense of proportion.
But at any rate, Ecker’s responsibilities here on this site are not connected to whatever he claims to have done a dozen years ago. What is required here is serious and fact-based thinking (so that we can get a clear picture of the Catholic Abuse Matter, in case he forgot).
Nor does knowing his real name (and how – really – do we even know that? Is the ‘tomdoyle’ who sometimes comments here really the actual still-Father Doyle of SNAP?) contribute in any way whatsoever to the value or quality of his comment material (he can put that on the agenda for when he and “James” do lunch; they may want to rethink their positon).
And he shares that he will be happy even to see innocent priests in jail if only because of the “crimes of his church . I don’t take issue with that opinion – he has a right to his opinion. But it is up to the readers what to make of the type of mind and character that can make such a claim in a spirit of exhilaration.
But then – waitttt for itttttt! – he will not be “gone forever”. No – like Superman or Batman or any other cartoon hero as he heads for the door or the skies, he promises to return if he (thinks he is) needed. Either to “gloat” or if “information is presented to wake these people up”.
But we have already seen that Ecker as a source of “facts” and “information” is not at all reliable. And what sort of person is this who does so like to “gloat”? There is a molten and rather unpleasant core here, beneath the Wigs.
Aaaaaand as it turns out, Ecker decided he was needed here yet again a mere 30 minutes later (or perhaps he began composing the 423PM comment as soon as he’d gotten behind the curtains and taken off the Wig from the 353PM show).
As “Philadelphia Catholics” – and a whole lot of others – are now beginning to see: they have been snowed with all sorts of exaggerations and false reports for quite a while. (Ecker witlessly or slyly conflates the modernizing of the AOP’s operations with the purported shocks of the Abuse Crisis itself.) And if those Philly Catholics are part of the very Catholic laity that Ecker includes in his indictment, then we are even further down the rabbit-hole here. (Alas they can’t simultaneously be victims and perps – it goes against Abusenik dogma.)
Then the incoherent “Its funny I can’t” sentence that as it stands makes no sense because it has no referent. (This is a mind that once upon a time wrote (heroic) official reports?)
As we have seen, the “four recent convictions” have resulted in the weakening of the legitimacy or integrity of the Philly justice system from police to DA and courts. And the appeals are yet to be heard, so I take his gloating here the same way I took the gloating of Abuseniks when that glorious crimes-against-humanity lawsuit was filed by SNAP with the ICC at the Hague: I’ll be interested to see how it finally turns out.
We shall also see how the AOP investigations (exaggerated formatting omitted) work out. Does Ecker see some particular significance in the investigations or is the exaggerated formatting merely a tic? Or the work of a Wig? What precisely does he see as the significance of the investigations? Or is it just his oft-deployed game of innuendo? (Note for the Notebook on the Playbook: toss out innuendo and then when asked to explicate, claim that you are too busy to “spell it out” for people and whine that you are too busy. Neat.)
What precisely does the Church ‘pick and choose’ to tell its flock? Clearly the fact of the investigations are public knowledge. Or is this remark indicative of Ecker’s attention wandering to something else (seriously: this is a mind that wrote official reports and made verbal reports in emergency situations?)
The characterization of Msgr. Lynn as a “pimp” is florid in its exaggeration. And we have yet to see what higher courts will make of his conviction.
And the concluding remark about Msgr. Lynn indicates without a doubt the essential twisted nastiness in the molten core. Hardly heroic. Repellent, even. But clearly, back from his half-hour retirement.
Is there a doctor in the house? Someone's claiming to be a hero vs. someone who is one? Where's the "warm"?. I haven't seen any warmth here.
I'm personally a 9 11 truther. Building 7 convinced me. That and the thermite residue and the buildings freefall speeds. Just keeping it honest.IMHO.
A lot of energy just exploded here. Dennis was your disability connected to 9 /11? you don't have to answer.
I have so many feelings about 9 11. I hate the permanent war this country has been in my entire life. I hate it. the country side is nice but why do we always go into other peoples countries and kill them and be killed ourselves? Only to become friends afterwards. It's nuts.
You keep inventing things I do that I don't do. Where have I profiled anybody? Now D your not claiming to be a first responder? Or a family member was? How lucky you were in NY that day and got hit by debris. That kind of makes you sacred too. Will a curtsey suffice? This show has just rode right off the rails.!!!!!
I am also a member of a first-responder agency, as well as part of an extended family of firefighters, EMTs and law enforcement- all of which were fully-engaged in the
The rest of us worked the "pile" and/or the Staten Island "landfill" – where we sorted through debris searching for human remains and belongings, for weeks and months after the tragedy. Sometimes, we found remnants or belongings of family members and friends. We
Like I said before. He has told lies that even he is starting to believe.
JAMES, here is your answer to your questions in case he ignores them !!!!!
Congrats. I doubt anyone on this site cares about your resume and where you were twelve years ago. Silence to your service during that time would be more appreciated.
[edited by moderator]
I'm to believe you just happened to be there exactly at the time the plane hit tower one. You were lucky you weren't hurt. I'm not saying I don't believe you. It's quite a thing to have gone through. I don't know what to say.
And wasn't it amazing how both buildings fell right into their own foot prints and building 7 too. After standing tall for 40 years. Free fall speed.(I went to the top of one tower once, bad vibes). Nothing to slow it down. Did you hear the popping sounds others heard?
Why do you think Bush and Cheany didn't want a investigative committee (comission) created? Why did they have to testify together and not under oath when one finally was. ? We have the largest military budget in human history yet on that day no jet fighters went up.
a couple of jets went up after or just before the second plane hit.
Why are you now insulting first responders by calling them a herd? We've never called all catholic priests sex abusers. Nor have we implyed they are. Why are you making up such a lie?
Dennis I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt here today, honestly. I get why. I want no one in jail who does not deserve to be there; and I know you do too.
Do what you want. You tried.
Infered not implied. Sorry!
"…yes I am. I'm a bigot too, I'm a fan of the Philadelphia District Attorney and Marianna Sorenson is my hero. I'm a divorced/remarried ex-catholic who denounces the teachings of the church….What else can I say ? Oh, and I stereotype all priests as abusers until proven otherwise. You know rather be safe then sorry."
Probably the most honest revelation this individual has ever undertaken, and, it is to be commended. Of course, it also means that he has no credibility on the church abuse matter since, as we all knew, he is just another antiCatholic bigot.
Now, just imagine the outcome of claims against clergy that lead to investigations and charges, which in turn lead to settlements or convictions (condemnations) that are being pursued by similarly-minded bigots in the population (many of our 'victims'), law enforcement, legal-judicial system, and the media. Sweeten the bigot pot with a big payout day at the end of their happy ideological trail, nestled in an intentionally secularized society, and you've got that perfect storm that's been brewing for generations now slamming up against the shoreline.
Astoundingly, the bigots are of such low moral character, they will continue to submit comments here, with their virtual 'pants down', and not suffer the slightest pang of consciousness (shame, regret?) regarding their contribution to the condemnation of innocent men, most directly, and millions of faithful Catholics, somewhat less directly. If this intentional harm to others isn't pure evil, then nothing is.
The payout at the ends of their miserable earthly lives will likely be a much less rewarding, and lengthier experience, I fear.
We must pray for their conversion.
The Catholic Church has withstood several evil empires. According to some commenters, we are supposed to believe the Catholic Church ITSELF is an evil empire, and in their narcisisstic minds, if they post enough nasty comments the rest of us will follow along. If the church were an evil empire, it would not have lasted for 2,000 years. Yes, there have always been evil people, including clergy and bishops, and some not evil, just cowardly, within the church. We are humans in a Christ-established church, a divinely-overlooked church. Divine oversight is the only explanation for the church lasting intact for 2,000 years. It is the only institution to do so, even when evil people get in it and wield power. J.R., you lost credibility when you first came on here and said Hitler was a Catholic. Those closest to Hitler recorded his disdain for Christianity in their diaries. Hitler was a rabid atheist who vowed to destroy the Catholic Church. Like you. And he was as successful as you will be. I for one am going to put more money in the collection plate. We need protection AGAINST evil, not to fall for it, in whatever form it takes, in the form of a predatory priest, a murderous dictator, or a manipulator in the comboxes.
Julie the religion of Egypt lasted 2500 + yrs.. It's gone.
Pride cometh before the fall.
Hitler was no atheist. He referenced Jesus as his Lord in many speeches. He was sieg hieled, including the arm salute, by many bishops of the catholic church. He was baptised, took holy communion; and was confirmed a catholic. He was an altar boy. Maybe he was even molested. I don't know.
When did I vow to destroy the catholic church? I must have missed that.
No Jim, I'm not like that but sometimes you have to give the crowd what THEY want to hear.
It shuts them up. So if they wish to think of me as the person I described then let them. It most likely will make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I GIVE THOUGH NO APOLOGY.
Now my credibility. They have questioned it time and time again. To the point were I have proven it also time and time again. I even made public a part of my life that I wanted to keep private. A part of my life that I cherished and is so proud of.
Then comes along an individual who would like to live off the coat tails of others. When he should be proud of his own accomplishments. Will we hear or will he tell others he was part of seal team six and he was the soldier who took out Bin Laden.
It is no suprise to me that there will be people who will defend him, that is because they would like to live in the same world that Delphin does pretending to be something that they are not.
If this individual wants to end the attacks by me let him show me and others the proof. I'm sure without a doubt I will be able to find the truth.
Otherwise he acts the same way as his church, and what he writes has no merit.
Dennis Ecker
Firefighter
Dennis, I support you. I salute your sacrifices, your health was one major sacrifice.
We have stepped through the looking glass by visiting this site and like Alice have wandered into a not so happy wonderland. P's the Caterpiller, going "Who are you?" and D is the Red Queen, painting the roses red and screaming "Off with ther heads!" Josie's the Mad Hatter and their god is the Jaberwock or maybe he's just a "tea tray in the sky".IMO
Before we get substantively derailed into 9-11 ‘truthing’ about the actual causes and fomenters of that event (a hall of mirrors that could keep ‘non-substantive’ commenters burning up the keystrokes ad infinitum), I would say:
First, JR is understandably excited about the prospect of the 9-11 and the Ecker-role bits. First, as I said above here, it opens up an entire ‘important’ field of historical events that can keep us off the substance of the Abuse Matter for quite some time, while simultaneously providing the scope for what JR and Ecker do best (indeed, it’s the only thing they seem able or willing to do): tossing out ungrounded if not also un-demonstrable assertions and claims as if they were “facts” while living happily in the sure and certain knowledge that they are right, very clever, and importantly involved in important stuff.
Second, JR – his own heroic military service actually having been nothing more than sitting around in the Canal Zone (half a world away from unhappy Vietnam; and not far (we recall) from a military unit that didn’t exist when he was there counting the days until he could get out - can support Ecker’s various claims as to employment and being in on the 9-11 response. By presuming the veracity of Ecker’s claims, and then automatically adding the “hero” characterization, JR gets to be somewhat of a hero (finally) by riding on Ecker’s (alleged) coat-tails. This is more like something one encounters in script-writing, but then the Abuseniks have been in showbiz for quite some time.
Third, was Ecker actually a) employed as a first-responder in NYC at the time of 9-11 and b) actually a responder to the Incident … who can really know? We might take Ecker’s word for it (supported by JR, as an additional credential; but unless JR is personally acquainted with Ecker off-site (now there’s a thought) then how does JR know either?) but I don’t see taking his word for it as a rational solution here.
I can say that the competence in mentation and expression we see in Ecker’s material certainly doesn’t make it probable that this is a mind reliably capable of making accurate and precise written and verbal reports in emergency situations. (And was that a factor in his presently no-longer being so employed? These are the adventures of historical research for scholars so inclined.)
In any case, none of that ‘history’ (real or alleged) is relevant to the material here.
Unless one wants to consider that theory wherein the huge consequences of the 9-11 event were specifically manipulated by various interests in and outside-of government to create a Stampede (successfully, as it turned out) to take the nation to military adventures in Iraq (as if it were involved in 9-11) on the basis of 9-11 and WMD … with the stunningly sobering results we have since experienced and are still experiencing as a nation.
But beyond that theoretical possibility of 9-11 somehow being the initiating pretext for a Stampede, then all the rest of the discussion is only going to take us off into places we don’t need to go.
P,
Delphin said she was there when the plane hit. You may not be interested in the subject. I am.
You've bored every one to death with your tropes and abuseniks and nonsense. Those are your views and you are entitled to them. Lame as they are.
Delphin was there at 9/11 I'm interested in her/his experience. Do you mind?
Dennis wants a little proof of said experience of D's. a sign up sheet could do that.
If I had a sign up sheet available for my "meetings" with my abuser I'd share that with you. I don't have that kind of evidence.
P.S. Why does, people addressing each other by their first or "christian" names bother you so? Is there some reason you mock that or is it just another ploy in your never ending denegration of your opposition?
Well, now we have Ecker’s of 929AM this morning (which is the last Ecker comment up as I write this; following it is mine of 1037AM).
“James” has been demoted to “Jim” – but who knows why. Perhaps it has something to do with the particular Wig in use at the time the keyboard is being used.
Having suddenly been caught-up by JR, who doesn’t want to gloat seeing innocent priests in jail, Ecker now has a problem: not only a) is he at risk of being in overt disagreement with “James” or “Jim” but b) he realizes that even if JR could be construed as thinking he (Ecker) had revealed too much, then Ecker has to somehow cover his tracks. Whatever shall he do?
Ecker being Ecker, he suddenly now claims (to his pal “Jim”) that “No”, he’s “not like that but sometimes you have to give the crowd what they [exaggerated formatting omitted] want to hear”. In other words, Ecker is saying that what he said did not arise from his actual self, but rather was i) a fake self-presentation, ii) deliberately deployed, iii) because it what the readership wants to hear from Ecker.
Willy-Tango-Foxtrot?
We are now to believe that what Ecker said is not an unintentional but vital self-revelation, but instead was a deliberately faked ‘Ecker’ (a nasty, molten-cored creature) which Ecker deliberately deployed of his own free will simply to give the readership what we are presumed to “expect” from him.
Why, pray, would we have come to “expect” such material from him?
Why would we not apply Ockham’s Razor and go with the common-sensical intuition that Ecker – who evinces no sustained and substantive respect for the readership here – has simply revealed unintentionally the ‘real’ Ecker (or as the German would have it: the echt Ecker) rather than go with the clunky proposition that he made himself look so repellent merely as a favor to readers for whom he holds so little regard?
This is not a person who enjoys a working relationship with truth and accuracy, perhaps even toward himself.
And clearly, if his objective was to “shut” us “up”, then he has failed spectacularly, and hardly unpredictably.
But on some level he realizes what he’s done, since he then says – again with the exaggerated formatting that ever indicates he is shouting because he has nothing else to offer – that he will “give no apology”.
And so what? The revelation is there, and now the cheesey effort to extricate himself from … himself … is also up there. The tangled webs one weaves when one first … and so on.
And then – sublimely – he segues directly to his “credibility”. (And No – I no longer think Ecker’s material is a put-on; I think he actually thinks he’s performing well in and through his material.)
Apparently putting up whatever one has cooked-up on one’s own, personally-controlled Facebook page is to be considered evidence. Or are there – as it were – independent sources of confirmation?
Then a confusing bit of Wigginess: while he has “cherished” and is “proud of” that (alleged) part of his life yet he made it “public”. The Wig of the Self-Contented Hero who as a public service reveals his marvelousness. Perhaps this Wig goes with a George Washington mask. (Just as he “made public” whatever allegations he may have made and perhaps was remunerated for? Who knows?)
But then he goes off the rails. “Then along comes an individual who like to live off the coattails of others” … that characterization was made of JR – and does Ecker once again get himself into a conceptual bind with his dear friend James/Jim/JR? And as to the “seal team six” and “he was the soldier who took out Bin Laden” – not even JR has claimed that and certainly JR is the only other person who has tried to make his military “career” an issue here. What is going on? Who knows – once Ecker’s mind now starts going into overdrive.
And things only get worse as Ecker then asserts that “there will be people who will defend him” … defend JR? Here? Or has Ecker – like JR often seems to do – suddenly gotten involved in another conversation with other entities he perceives to be hovering around his keyboard? What are we seeing here?
And then down the rabbit-hole completely: “If this individual wants to end the attacks by me” … so … Ecker is ‘attacking’ somebody on this site? Charming. And what “proof” is “this individual” supposed to demonstrate? Proof of what? What are we seeing here?
However, Ecker sniffs that he is “sure without a doubt I will be able to find the truth”. Really? First, the truth about what? Second, Ecker’s ability to “find the truth” seems grossly insufficient, as we saw as recently as that link to the Philadelphia court site, based on Ecker’s faulty presumption that there was an imminent upcoming trial.
He signs this comment as “Firefighter”.
From a purely historical-method point of view, there are several vital steps necessary to successfully perform in order to ground Ecker’s heroic past: a) that Ecker was a firefighter at the time of 9-11; b) that he responded to the Incident; c) that he performed well – or ‘heroically’.
I am not going to go looking for answers to these questions, although I am also not going to accept unsupported claims on the Facebook page of the clearly-interested Party.
But we have all seen people sporting FDNY tee-shirts and ballcaps and such since 9-11; it’s a standard phenomenon that follows all such large historical happenings: people can get the stuff, they want to be ‘part of’ the glorious scenario, and before long who is going to know if one is just a person with a tee-shirt/ball-cap or an actual veteran participant? Variations of this theme are seen in bars and around water-coolers everywhere: ‘war stories’ by people who claim to have been there. Genuine Vietnam combat vets are often put-out by this sort of thing, and there is now federal legislation against wearing combat or military-service medals and ribbons one didn’t actually earn. That sort of thing. There will always be some loose electrons who see such scams as a quick and easy way to some status (and maybe a free drink), and some of them have even convinced themselves that they deserve the medals/ribbons (or would have deserved them if only … and so on). And on the internet the scam is easier to pull off than it is when actually facing actual people.
All of which also raises some interesting aspects of relevance in regard to allegations and claims of victimhood.
And that leads to my last point: it seems to me that the use of “hero” here is in some fundamental ways similar to the use of “victim”: both confer a certain social status and role that can (nowadays) easily and without too much difficulty be assumed by any persons (those loose electrons) who feel they aren’t getting the ‘status’ and ‘respect’ they feel, or are convinced, that they deserve. And, once again, this is even easier to pull off on the internet than in actual human situations.
It has been a vital element of the status that “victimhood” has been endowed with such status as it has been in the past three decades or so in this country. If you can get ‘status’ (and the attendant public recognition, sense of ‘meaning’, and so on) by claiming to be a victim, and the media go along with it without question, and then you might even get a big payday out of it, and then the courts themselves begin to rule-out any substantive examination of your claims … well, you can see where this sort of thing can go. And has.
And in a world-class historical irony, as something of a counter-weight to the valorization of ‘victimhood’, there then arouse the valorization of ‘hero-hood’, such that the term is now used to characterize a stunningly wide range of situations.
With a concomitant increase in the possibilities of scams by loose and needy electrons, especially on the internet.
And – I would say – in the Catholic Abuse Stampede.
How did I live off the "coat tails of others " Willy Tango Foxtrot? Dennis wasn't talking about me He was referring to Delphin.
Why must you drip venom? What does that get you but poisoned your self? Where's the beauty on your side. You're not showing any.
What the hell are you talking about?
Every one in my baracks counted the days till they would get out. Every draftee; every enlisted man who wasn't a lifer counted their days.from the first day of basic training.as people 's time got short.
In the morning; getting up,they would should out the word, "short" and announce the number of days left. They were called and called themselves: "short timers" It was bliss to be a short timer. All of us felt that way from the begining of our time there. I still have dreams of waking up back in the Army and either I've stayed longer than I needed too past my discharge date or that I have forgotten I didn't have to be there and could leave at any time.
You obviously know nothing about the military at that time.
And as far as my being "heroic" goes, I drove my jeep every work day into Panama to work at the U.S. Embassy and other embassies. There were political riots between the Embassy and the Zone. I had to avoid and get back to the Canal Zone through. I did my job. What did you do in the military ,your judgementship?( That's If you did serve in the military or maybe you're like D who invented a military "career" [ which is usually 20+ years of service])
Not "should" but "shout out the word: short". My apologies to the readership.
As I was driving through Panama a man tossed a small photograph into my jeep as I waited at a stop sign. It was a picture of Che. Dead lying on a table. It upset me. I couldn't understand why he'd thrown the picture to me. a couple of years later. I found out I had gotten the visas for the Special Forces guys from the notorious School of the Americas who had killed Che. I'd been a cog in Che's death. I don't think the guy who tossed the photo knew about my small connection. I still have the photo.
Gallery | 9/11 aftermath in NYC: AJC staff photos | Photo 7 | ajc.com
projects.ajc.com/gallery/view/metro/news/9-11-staff/7.html
Philadelphia firefighter Dennis Ecker washes out a firefighter's eyes after he finished working a rotation at the World Trade Center on Sept. 12, 2001.
The last time I prove anything.
The dissenter crowd sees the world quite differently; they get bogged down in the trees and, therefore, never get to see the forest.
The point of invoking my 9-11 experience was not to make claim to anything (what have I to gain with a false claim – after all, no Church booty to be gotten or antiCatholic grudge-axe to grind?) but to juxtapose how one deals with adversity, suffering and pain. The point is that we're all (every human) victims of some adversity, to varying degrees, but, the really important thing is how you deal with, and finally resolve, your victimization.
Did any of you ever discover, gain something, anything positive from your experience (adversity)? Cancer patients, and many others as severely (and worse) afflicted certainly do. Or do you backfill reasons and assign blame to justify your hatred?
The 9-11 comparison was also meant to point out the hypocrisy of the antiCatholics, who would rather focus on the merits of my experience (simply to provide context) rather than how it is they negatively profile Catholics as a result of the minor abuse matter, and not Muslims as a matter of the 9-11 mass human destruction matter. Still awaiting an answer to that one. Not holding my breath.
Other than that, I've made my point. These hater-bigots do certainly engage in negative profiling of Catholics, especially our priests, as admitted and as clearly documented, yet, they insist we believe their hateful words and support their bigoted acts of aggression against our Church, the faithful, and our Lord.
It is also not a surprise that we have a "truther" among us. This could signal the end of a beautiful relationship between Rick Blaine, the reluctant ex-pat 'hero' and Captain Renault, the gambling, soundrel Inspector, since 9-11 'firefighter heroes' and OWS-type conspiratorial 'truthers", who are already distancing themselves from each others most recent revelations, are thoroughly incompatible.
Politics certainly does make strange bedfellows-
What did you have to gain by claiming you had a military career?
Just dawned on me, we have a triple-dipper here, folks!
One of our resident bigots is drawing a tidy retirement from the Church, the PFD and the 9-11 Fund, how sweet. Thank you, America, Oh, and of course, God.
No wonder we're "retired" at 50 YO. Got an awful lot of free time – not to mention Church, City and Fed booty on/in our hands, heh?
Thank you, everyone.
This thread is now closed.